Weekly Rant: Promoters

Categorized | War Zone

Posted on 06 June 2011.

So as of late local promoters have been in the forefront of a few stories, not only with Project Backstage, but in many other areas of the Internet. It has become very clear that promoters play a very critical role in local scenes across the nation in many ways, but they can be the difference on if a show actually happens or not.

When you talk to the local artists, many get upset if a promoter is making money. They really take exception to a promoter that is making more than they do. Why is this? If you step back for a moment and look at things above the local level, and look at the “A List” type bookings (Mammoth Productions for example in KC), these guys do well on making shows happen that would not happen in the music scene that would not come to a city if they did not put up the sometimes $10,000+ to make it happen. They take the risk, and can sometimes double, maybe triple their investment on a show. On this level, not one person complains that the promotion company is making money.

With that scenario in place, let’s step back to the local level. Local and regional promoters in the KC area work 40+ hours a week putting together decent stages, and bringing some up and coming acts to town for locals to have a chance to open for. They rent the venues like Beaumont, Voodoo Lounge, Uptown Theater, etc and allow bands that otherwise would not ever have a chance of playing those major venues a chance to do just that.

Kilroy Presents, Stratgazer Entertainment, and many others put up money, time, and take risks with their capital to take a return on investment just like Mammoth does, only on a smaller scale. I know personally the time these guys put in to even a local show at a local venue to promote it, get people to the venue, and all in prayers to at least break even. But then bands complain that the promoter is making money.

Take a show at like Aftershock, Riot Room, or another good stage for locals there are many aspects the promoter takes the risk with. They have to pay the sound guy, cover any shortages that is not made by the venue (i.e. – bar), pay for flyers and promotional material, pay to have tickets printed, and cover any guarantees that a regional/national touring act demands to play that venue. When these promoters ask for a 25 ticket sale commit, they immediately get the “we are not going to pay to play” card thrown at them, and the band whines that they have to sell tickets to get a spot on the bill.

If you do not want to sell tickets, or want a guarantee to play a show, book one yourself. You can put up the money to cover all the expenses listed and hope you make something in the end. When a promoter asks you to sell 25 tickets, at $10 a piece, why is this horrible? You are making $3 – $5 per ticket you sell, and the promoter is getting the rest of the money to cover what they got invested.

So for example, on a $10 per ticket show, you have a 25 sale commit with a $3 retention (back to you), yes you are only making $75 for selling those, and the promoter is getting $175, but that $175 will not even cover the light rental in the facility (most start at $300 and go up). You are also “paying” the promoter for what he/she knows how to do so that you do not have the same issue happen to you that happened in Salina, KS with a promoter that had no clue on how to handle putting on a full scale concert. In the end, you are “paying” the promoter a very small amount of money to play a stage. If you sell more tickets, you make more money. Trust me, it does not get any easier the higher up the food chain you go, in fact, the numbers get much larger that you pay out, and the return is sometimes nothing for that spot.

So simply put, the next artist that comes to me and complains that promoters are making more than they do, I am not listening. I have seen shows lose literally thousands of dollars that one of these local promoters tried to do, and they lick their wounds and carry on to the next show. The bands still played, the show was still awesome, the commits were made, but the promoter had to cover the expenses in the end, not the bands.

Don’t get me wrong, I am not trying to be pre-Madonna here, or acting like I am on a high horse. This is just one side of the industry that I feel people do not understand, and I am trying to explain it a little for those that do not understand it. Everyone works their 40 hour a week jobs to put food on the table, and doing promotions are how these guys make their money. Granted, not one promoter ever puts in less than 60 hours a week on what they do (the ones that are good anyway), but this is how they put food on their families table and pay the bills.

So in closing, to all the bands that are reading this, the next time you think you are being “screwed” by a promoter because they are giving you a ticket sell commit that you have to reach to play the stage on a show you want on, you are not. You have no risk. Once you play and leave, your commitment is done and no one is going to come after you for the show losing money. Seriously, think about what you are complaining about.

This is just the way I see it.

Frank Arena
Project Backstage

Gil

Frank,
Personally I don’t agree with you. These promoters don’t have a huge risk on most of the local shows. I have put on my own show at the Voodoo lounge for a local show and there was no out of pocket cost for me. Sound guy was paid lights and all the stuff to go with it. I know there is money involved at Beaumont and some other clubs. Aftershock the bands pay for the sound guy. I get pissed when promoters want $7 off a $10 dollar ticket and do NOTHING. Ok not nothing they create an event on facebook and then post it a thousand times and then have the bands be the promoters. They go by the moniker of promoter and don’t do anything for it. When they bring a national act to town it is not my responsibility to make sure that they can pay for the headlining act. That falls on the shoulder of the promoter. These guys don’t work radio ads or flyer anything. I understand they are running a business but to say that my business as the band is less valuable than theirs is a load of crap. Our band particularly me have put thousands into building our business and growing it, we have expenses ourselves to cover but again here is the fact of screw the artist. Guess what these guys would promote if there wasn’t bands playing or willing to play shows? Oh yeah, nothing. To say that we don’t have a risk is BS, if you don’t realize that then you have no reason to be in the line of work you are in. Now tell me what risk does Kilroy or Stratgazer take when they book a show at aftershock and charge $10 a ticket and keep $6 for themselves. Even if it has a national act WHEN does it become one of the other bands responsibility to make sure the national act is paid. They should be promoting and get their own ticket sales to cover their cost and then some. There is a reason why these guys don’t do the BIG shows. Shady business stays in the shadows. Now I’m not trying to be a prima donna just saying that there is risk on both sides of the coin. If you take the bigger risk you can get the bigger reward that is why I don’t complain about the guys that put on big national act and make 3 times the return. Those guys are also not asking to be paid by the local opener to cover the cost of the big national act.

http://www.jimkilroy.com Jim Kilroy

Gil, since you mentioned me, I feel a need to reply. I’m going to quote you on a few things.

“I have put on my own show at the Voodoo lounge for a local show and there was no out of pocket cost for me. Sound guy was paid lights and all the stuff to go with it.”

Thanks for this one. They’ve told me numerous times not to tell anyone what my deal is at VooDoo. And here you are posting yours on the damn internet. I’m going to flip them some shit about this. Maybe I can use this to get a little bit of a sweeter deal there.

“Now tell me what risk does Kilroy or Stratgazer take when they book a show at aftershock and charge $10 a ticket and keep $6 for themselves.”

Well, I don’t do that. I’ve usually done tix at $6-8 for Aftershock and have given the bands $3-4 out of each of their sales.

This next one, I don’t know if you meant to include me, but it is after you mention me, so I’m taking this as being aimed at me:

“There is a reason why these guys don’t do the BIG shows. Shady business stays in the shadows.”

Now by big shows do you mean arena sized shows? Because the reason I don’t do those is that I don’t have the experience, capital, connections or because the name of my company isn’t AEG. I am bringing Brian McKnight to the Uptown. I feel like it’s a big show. Don’t have a single local act booked on the bill. I’m kind of thinking I’m in over my head and because I’m not experienced in doing the BIG shows, I’m risking losing a chunk of money. I guess time will tell if I should have stayed in the shadows, right?

Now, If you meant BIG shows like Mammoth does at the Beaumont. They by god are wanting and are using local bands to sell tix. Don’t kid yourself.

http://www.kcproductions@live.com kc productions

costs of show
lights min $ 200.00
sound $ 135.00
all age show … $125.oo
ticket cost (print) $ 40.00 +
flyers, $ 150.00
beer for bands (keg) $70.00
pizza for band (food) $30.00
hotel for out of state band $ 100.00 per room
+ fee of out of state band
hours of promoting passing out flyers ,posting ,telling people and talking about the bands and promoting the bands

I pay all of these things every show + more I cant speak for other promoters just my self and what I do so yes there are lots of risk and hours of work ….

http://www.kcproductions@live.com kc productions

and not to mention a promoter has to cover liquor sales if they do not meet minimum sales (example) $1700 FOR A SAT NIGHT

Steve

Dude, it’s “prima donna” not “pre-Madonna.”

Rich Baldwinger

It’s a rant. All the rants on this site are not spell checked or ran for grammar. It is the “free form” writing here.

Swayze

It is the band’s job, along with the PROMOTER, to PROMOTE shows. I have played all across the country and I can tell you it’s all the same; “promoters” that are more bookers than anything, and locals that don’t give a shit. There are very few promoters that actually promote, and probably fewer bands that do it, it’s pathetic. As as promoter, or a band, it is your job to get people to the show, period.
http://www.knockkneedsally.com Stovepipe Perkins

I see both sides…. bands want good shows – promoters want to book shows and both want to make at least “some” money.

The both are interested in big crowds…

I book most of our own stuff and we have forward momentum as well, but some bands aren’t good at marketing, so they need promoters more than some of the others.

We have been involved with some of the larger promoters Mamouth / Pipeline, etc. and understand the time commitment and real investments they make in these shows.

It’s sometimes a tradeoff to get booked as an opener… Do we want to get paid for a local show or play for free in front of 3000 and try to sell CD’s?

Ideally… Get your band busy so each show doesn’t have to stand on it’s own. Look to the average of the months shows.. The last 168 shows we’ve played in front of 8600 people making about $8000 gross.

We don’t play some of the free for all / battle of the bands shows as thats really not our thing. But we never turn down a legit show if the marketing works out on any level.

Either it’s good money or helps us get real fans…
Rosie Palmer

To Jim:

When you book a band, you should help that band bring in some people as well. It seems like you (and others as well) choose to make one facebook event to promote your show and expect the bands to do their own work. It seems like all the promoters do is secure the venue leaving the bands to work for the promoters when it should be both working together to help the music scene thrive. We don’t have much of a music scene here strictly because we don’t have any help with the promoting of shows. You guys expect us to sell tickets to our friends and family (gigging out maybe 2 times a month) and expect to see our numbers increase. I swear if you helped promote your own shows with flyers, radio ads, and other stuff, you would make your money back because you would be doing two things. 1. Bringing in a new and BIGGER crowd to your shows. 2. Helping the bands that put food on your table gain exposure so they can maybe put food on their own table with the music they love to play. I have a lot of respect for you but there’s a lot of things that you can do to improve upon to get this music scene rolling again.

If you’re in the business of promoting bands, you should try harder to help them be successful rather than not giving a shit about them and expecting them to feed your family with their hard work. You may be the investor behind a show but don’t call yourself a promoter if all you do is secure the venue and make a facebook event. That’s not promoting, but rather an insult to the bands that put the time and effort into making the shows a success (the bands).

“Thanks for this one. They’ve told me numerous times not to tell anyone what my deal is at VooDoo. And here you are posting yours on the damn internet. I’m going to flip them some shit about this. Maybe I can use this to get a little bit of a sweeter deal there.” – On a side note, when you said this, it made you sound very unprofessional. I’d expect this from a 17 year old, but then again, this is the internet.

http://www.jimkilroy.com Jim Kilroy

I’m going to quote you quoting me.

““Thanks for this one. They’ve told me numerous times not to tell anyone what my deal is at VooDoo. And here you are posting yours on the damn internet. I’m going to flip them some shit about this. Maybe I can use this to get a little bit of a sweeter deal there.” – On a side note, when you said this, it made you sound very unprofessional. I’d expect this from a 17 year old, but then again, this is the internet.”

If you really knew me, you know I am a smart ass and I especially enjoy making smart ass comments on the internet.

All smart assedness aside:

This is how Merriam-Webster defines promoter: one who assumes the financial responsibilities of a sporting event (as a boxing match) including contracting with the principals, renting the site, and collecting gate receipts.

I have websites other than facebook that I use to promote my shows. On top of that I have over 10 different domain addresses that are pointed at my websites and webpages. I do run radio (and I write and record my own spots), I have run ads in magazines, I’ve even got a digital billboard that I’ve been using lately. On shows that I’m involved with, I book the date, I book all of the bands, I design the flier, I design, print and mail the tickets. I deal with bands canceling at the last minute. Sometimes I set up stages and lighting. Often I work the door and announce the bands. I pay taxes on my ticket and t-shirt sales. Now, you don’t want to call me a promoter that’s fine. But until you’ve done a fraction of what I do and do it for years on end, then I don’t think you’ve got any room to tell me what it is you think I’m doing or think I should be doing.

http://www.kcproductions@live.com kc productions

Hell yes I agree 100 % This a hard road that takes a lot of time
and a lot of risk with a different out come every time it takes many many hours of planning and babysitting for those who do not like there promoters find a new one but the story remains the same you half to self promote period . Or have a guy willing to invest his or her money to promote you I would think it would be very hard for a band to get an investor if they dont self promote and push what they believe in this is your dream your goal get management that you trust and let them find the best promoter that works for you but you will find it hard to find one that does it better than Jim and has as many contacts as he does and this is a business of who you know .

Categorized | War Zone

Weekly Rant: Promoters

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